INTERVIEW:
Question 1
Your research involves the means to end violence by use of technology. Can we really do
that, and how?
Answer
We can do that: we have some technologies that are completely new, and some are emerging,
which have a lot of impact on violence. For example, we already have devices that see in
through walls, so we can listen and zero in on a wall or in a house, yards or even miles
away, and tell you what's going on within that room. We have some surveillance technology
today that is truly amazing. There is also some new radar technology being developed right
now in this country and tested in some airports which is like the Total Recall movie. We
can see through your clothes and see anything that is on your body, a knife or whatever,
so we can screen you for weaponry without having to remove clothes or search you. We have
this in camcorder form now, so a police officer can carry it on the streets and scan the
people on the streets for weapons or anything else. There is a modesty problem there
because it sees soft tissue as well as weaponry. We also have "sober up"
implants that are about to come on the market within the next few years. They sober you up
no matter how much you have had to drink. The first oneis for alcohol; if you take this
before you drink, you can't get drunk; if you take it after you drink, then you will
immediately sober up. It blocks the impact of alcohol in the brain. The same kind of
technology can be used for cocaine and heroin and all the other drugs. The reason it is
being used for alcohol first is because that is were the big market is. We have more
alcoholics than anything else. In the United States, for example, more than half of crimes
involve alcohol use. This would obviously be a big hindering factor, particularly in
domestic crimes and things like that.
We also have a lot of new kinds of surveillance. For example, there is the global
positioning system, where we use satellites to keep track of people. Now we can track
people wherever they go by using global positioning. One of the most interesting types of
surveillance comes along with ubiquitous computing, where we basically put a microcomputer
on your collar, in your house, a7nd one in your car and your office, and can make a total
record of your life, from the time you get up to the time you go to bed, and even hear
what you say while you sleep. Basically we have a lot of ways to go about this, people
will probably buy into ubiquitous computing because it will make them more efficient, more
effective, so that they have a total record of everything they have done, and this will be
put into a format that they can recall it at any time. The problem is that if you have the
police getting wire taps, or things like these, then they will be able to have a total
record of that person's life. The United States military can now put your DNA bar-code on
the record. Now a lot of day-care requires DNA bar codes, a lot of elderly centers require
a bar code. I believe that within the next five to ten years the DNA bar codes will be
omnipresent in our country and probably in many other countries in the world. Then we will
have the capability to have universal dossiers, that is to say, we can take this
information from ubiquitous computing and make a dossier of everything about your life,
from your health day care to your criminal record, to your educational record to your
psychological problems. So we actually have the ability to have universal dossiers of
almost everything in your life. We call that intelligence information in the law
enforcement area.
There is a lot of research going on, particularly at McGill University in Toronto, on
memory. They have discovered that all the important events in your life are on a kind of
videotape in your brain. From that videotape we can force you, by putting sensors on some
parts of the brain, to recall the event. For example, if you were a bank robber or a
rapist, we might force you to recall that. This of course would be a heck of an
investigative tool.
We have a lot of other things. In our country we really think that criminals just bad
people. If we got rid of the bad people then the world would be a wonderful place to live.
As long as we have that attitude, then we are willing to use a lot of our technology. For
example, one of the things is artificial ageing. Pretty soon, we are going to discover the
genetic causes of ageing, and as we do that we'll be able to live longer but we'll also be
able to force people to age. Most violent criminals are violent in their teen years, in
their twenties and thirties and early forties. By the time they are 45 most of them calm
down, their bodily fluids change. So we could take a 25 year old who has committed a
violent crime and age him by twenty years without the need of imprisoning him, because he
wouldn't be a problem any more. If we really wanted to take all the criminals off the
streets - which we are certainly not going to do because nobody's able to do that - we
could use various forms of suspending their animation - we suspend animation in dogs
already. We could stack people up and not have to keep them, feed them and let them go.
Space prisons on asteroids, undersea prisons where we would grow seaweed and other kinds
of aqua-culture, these are all possible in the next ten years.
We could also have robot prison officers, particularly now that we have artificial
intelligence to run these robots. They would be cheap and easy to use. We already use
electronic surveillance in our country. We take people who are on probation parole, people
who are in community-based programs, and put them on electronic monitors. Usually now
these are wrist bracelets or ankle bracelets, but in the future we will be able to have
implants in the body like birth control implants. We already have situations where a
woman, for example put her baby into a trashcan. She agreed to have a five-year birth
control implant in exchange for not going to prison and simply being in the community
under supervision. You can force people to accept an implant, or go to prison. So one of
the things that we might want to do here is to have electroshock through the implant, so
these people who have been fooling round, if they don't stay where they are supposed to,
go to work, to school and back home, they go out of the territory, then they get
automatically electroshocked until they go back in their territory. This is a free will
situation: you don't get shocked unless you leave your territory; at the same time, we
don't have to spend a lot of money to get you if you do leave your territory. So that's
another possibility of solving the violence problem.There are at least three more ways.
Subliminal conditioning is another one; we have mixed research on subliminal conditioning;
we know that subliminal conditioning does impact some people at least, we don't know if it
is universal or not, but we do know that these subliminal sound and light shows can get
some people to do what you want them to do. One of the things we thought of was a
subliminal implant, which puts a message on a rotating basis inside the head, saying: do
the right thing, do as you're told, obey the law, be a good citizen, over and over and
over again until you cannot think about doing anything else. When would we do this? Would
we do this when somebody commits a first violent crime, or a second violent crime, or
would we do it when somebody has a propensity to violence, or just do it universally, so
we don't have to worry about it?Another possibility is biomedical control. If you have a
lot of serotonin in your blood stream then you are a calm, cool, collected person. If you
don't have much serotonin in your blood you are aggressive, hyperactive, a threat to the
community much of the time. We can now create implants which drip different kinds of
chemicals into your bloodstream to keep you calm, cool, and collected at all times. We
could also use telepathy; we are now running computers with brain waves, or flying
aeroplanes with brain waves, so obviously brain waves are out there, so we could read
those brain waves, we could make it against the law even to think about committing a
crime, by reading the brain waves. We could also use organic memory chips. We are going to
use organic memory chips in the next ten years, that is to say, we are going to have
nano-computer memory chips, which store tremendous amounts of information. You could look
into your neural system and just think about it and collect your information. For police
officers this is a real boom because they could have all the criminal records on their
files in their head, walk down in the streets, see somebody who looks suspicious, run
through their files in their brains and say, there's one who has to be arrested and arrest
him. A lot of people would be using this because it would make them more efficient at
work, because if you had all this memory right at your "braintips", so to speak,
then you'd be more efficient.And then you have another interesting way of stopping
violence which I call mind tapping, which is to say hacking into the computers in people's
brains. Hackers have always been successful at hacking into any kind of system we have
ever set up in the computer world, so here you could have police officers actually who do
this as their job, to hack and check out and see if anybody's got material stored on how
to make a bomb. Probably the ultimate of these types of technology is genetic engineering
itself. We can splice a gene, alter a gene, delete a gene, insert a gene, and basically
make a person with whatever kind of characteristics we want. So we could find the
non-criminal type and clone it. If that is what we really wanted to do, we could have a
totally violence-free society.
Question 2
Will this use of technology really make us safer?
Answer
It depends on how you define "safer". If you define safer by "nobody is
going to hit me or shoot me", yes, we can do that. If you define safer as having a
good quality of life, feeling comfortable in my community, and feeling that I am in
harmony with my fellow men, obviously those things have to be given up for this.
Question 3
In your work you claim that we can end violence, but you also question if we should. Does
this mean that there are some serious risks associated with these uses of technology?
Answer
Of the three biggest problems that I have identified one is the loss of privacy. There
could be no privacy in this world, when people can see you through walls, when they can
have a record of everything you say, when they can read your mind, when they can even tap
into the computerized implants in your brain. I think privacy is one of the things we
would have to give up, and some people would not mind that, but I always ask people if
there is any thought they have ever had that they would not want to share with the world?
And most people have some thoughts they would not want to share. The second thing I think
is that the Nazis would have loved to have this kind of technology. I think they would
have been able to succeed where they almost succeeded anyway, with the ease of this kind
of technology. And the third problem I think is dehumanization, treating people not as
individuals but as members of the herd, to be controlled, not to be respected for
individual rights or for their own humanity. I think we have to give up a lot of the
things that make life worth living in exchange for this end to the threat of violence.
Question 4
Should emerging high technology be used at all to fight crime and violence in the future,
in your opinion?
Answer
Yes, I think so. In our country we have a charter of human rights, declarations of the
United Nations, we have the US constitution, and if somebody is involved in criminal
activity, then we can seek permission to use technology, such as wire taps, surveillance
technologies, and I think that that is the reason for the use of technology. I do not
think that scanning the general population with cameras, or with telepathy is a rightful
use of the technology. Another big thing is cell phones. If you own a cell phone, if you
assume you have privacy, then you are making a false assumption: you have no privacy on a
cell phone. Just about anybody can interrupt, can get a call off the cell phone, they can
also clone your phone for other people to use and their calls end up on your bill. So
there are various areas where technology is making it very difficult to protect privacy.
My biggest fear for the future is that we may not be able to protect privacy. We certainly
cannot protect privacy technologically, that is to say, we don't have the technology to
overcome the technology invading privacy, we do not know how to stop the invasion of
privacy. So I think in that area it is going to take a change in values, and that is a
hard thing to do, particularly in our country where we like to have the freedom to do
anything we want, and it is very hard for us to restrain ourselves.
So, I think it's going to take a change in the paradigm, and that is what I would talk
about briefly. We need to stop thinking of crime as the problem of a few people in a mean
world, and think of crime as a problem in relating with each other that involves all of
us. I have my students in my criminology class write a paper called "My Life of
Crime". Every student in the class has to write the paper, and I have never had a
student that has not admitted to at least one crime. So when I go into groups and ask
them, how many of you in this group believe somebody has committed a crime against you
sometime in your life, hands go up. Then I ask how many of them think they have done some
criminal harm to somebody else sometime in their lives, and all the hands go back up. So
we find that the crime problem is not a few mean people, everybody is involved at one time
or another in the crime problem, but some people get more deeply involved. Part of the
reason that people get more deeply involved is because of the kinds of problem they live
in or the kinds of reactions they get cause a further involvement. Obviously, if we don't
trust them, then they are not going to have any reason to turn away from the things they
are doing, but just try to get better at it. So instead of thinking of the world as mean
people who have to be controlled by hard technology, we should start to think that we live
in communities together, we do not all think alike, we may look different, we may have
different customs, different religions, different ways of living, but what we have to do
is learn how to cope with each other, we have to learn to be more tolerant with each
other. Tolerance is a tough thing in this world, we are not very tolerant a lot of the
time.
Another thing is what I call moving to a peace paradigm from a war paradigm. We have
always thought we had to have war on crime, war on drugs, that's how we would stop the
problem. But the peace studies which are catching on in a lot of my country are basically
studies that say: what we want is peace in the neighborhood, not a war on crime. People
want to live in a peaceful neighborhood, they don't want to live in a place with gunfire
going on over their heads, they don't want military police in their lives, they really
would like a place where we can trust our neighbors, where we can interact with each
other, where we can revel in our differences. That takes a completely different approach,
and we are starting those approaches, community policing which is growing world wide,
basically good people in the neighborhood, seeing what they have in common, looking at the
problems in the neighborhood, and solving those problems with the neighbors and the social
services and the police. Law enforcement and other community groups are working in
partnership to do that, and if we do that, then we can prevent crime instead of having to
catch criminals. We are terrible at catching criminals; we catch hardly any criminals;
even with as many people as we have, if we counted all the criminals who would be
imprisoned, how many would we have. If we spent all our lifetime just trying to stop
criminals, we would always be behind. Reactive approaches don't work; we need a proactive
approach, that means identifying crime, reading situations and doing something about them.
Obviously high technology has a place there. I think that a modicum of surveillance is
reasonable. For instance, it is accepted now that many cities in Europe, and cities like
Baltimore in the USA, have surveillance cameras in public places. People can monitor these
digital cameras more easily and even use key words to see what they are looking for
without having to go through all the footage. I think that is reasonable in public places.
One of the problems we have in our country is that it is used more in private places than
in public places because it is business which is using these to spy on their employees,
even putting them in restrooms saying, well, that is where they take drugs and we don't
want them to take drugs because that costs us dollars and lowers productivity. I am not
sure I think that is reasonable. I think technology has a place, but I think it has to be
limited by law, it has to be limited to public places.
Question 5
What can we do today in order to combat crime and violence without relying so heavily on
this technology? How do you envision a relatively crime free society in the future?
Answer
I really do think that the paradigm shift I talked about briefly is something we have to
do, and there are groups of us selling it. For instance, I belong to a group called Police
Futurists International, grouping police officers and researchers from around the world,
and one of the things we do is sell the community model. We are saying that the crime
problem is a community problem, not a state problem, not a government problem, and
basically we have to go into that community, assess what the crime problem is, what is
causing that problem, what the problem might be tomorrow, so that we might take action,
and then do something about it. Again that takes partnerships, and it takes something that
has been very difficult for police around the world: sharing power with the people.
Police, at least modern policing, started in London in 1929, and was designed to maintain
peace in the community. We are saying: let's go back to the original model and get away
from the war model, get away from the idea that we are professionals who enforce the law
against all comers and say: we're here to assess what the real problems are in the
community, some of them will be legal, some will be extralegal, but we need to solve those
problems. Part of the problem is creating a community. We have a lot of people who live in
buildings that don't know the people who live across the hall and they explode. So we have
to actually create a community in many cases. People who don't know each other distrust
each other almost automatically. So we need to get them familiar with each other, we need
to create communities, and then we need to find out what we have in common, and play on
that. The alternative is unthinkable: that we rely on impersonal high technology to keep
us safe. I have read 1984, I have my students read Brave New World, etc., and I don't
really think that is acceptable. What scares me is that my students like Brave New World,
and as long as they are alphas, they want to live in it. I found it scary that we have
come to that point, because fifteen years ago when I was teaching this, there was not a
student in my class who wanted be part of Brave New World.
Question 6
We have been dealing with what might be done, and with what should be done. In your
opinion, or as you can forecast, what will be done?
Answer
I think the problem is that we have two totally dichotomic models going on, the war model
and the peace model. We have people who have a great stake in the war model. They have
used it for years, they have been successful with it, they have lived by raising fears in
the public. The way to keep the war model going is to lead the public to believe that they
are going to be attacked in their sleep if they don't give us money and resources. And
they have been very successful in getting resources by pushing the war model. So it's hard
to get the change made. However, the leaders in Police Futurists International see the
need to move away from fearmongering and toward bringing peace. I believe that the fear of
crime is as big as the problem of crime in many areas, because people are afraid to go
outside, they lock themselves behind doors, they don't interact with other people, they
don't take part to social events. This is a quality of life issue. What fun is living
behind closed doors and fear; and if we had the high tech, it might allow you to go out,
but then you would be in fear for your privacy. I would not be able to do what I wanted, I
would have to do what they expected of me. So, either way you've got fear. We have to get
away from and I believe we will towards a restored justice model in this
country. People are saying, when a crime does occur, what we ought to do is make
restitution to the individual and to the community, and then seek for a reconciliation of
the offender and the community. Some people see this as an old model, but the
rehabilitation model was not like that: it put the emphasis on how to change the offender.
This is saying no, the offender must pay, through restitution to the victim and the
community, but then we should consider the offender as a member of the community, who
needs to be helped to move back into the community. One of the big problems we have today
is that, because of this fear of the mean world out there, even when people finish their
sentence and they pay their debts to society, we now want to tell everybody in their
community who they are and where they moved, so that we can identify them. Secondly, we
don't give them a job, and certainly don't give them a chance, don't let them go to school
with our children, etc. We are not willing to forgive. It is so funny that a nation like
mine, supposedly born out of Christianity and the Christian model, is probably one of the
least forgiving nations in the world.
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